Yesterday 6 Ministers went into the Prime Minister's office and told him that if he doesn't fire Ralph, they will all resign at the end of the month. It's an unprecedented ultimatum, and today, the aftershocks rippled through the whole country, as the two most powerful men in Belmopan, Ralph Fonseca and Said Musa are under heavy attack. And while PM Musa juggles the magical blue cubes of chance and change, the big deal is really about Ralph Fonseca. Today, the embattled Minister of Finance granted us an exclusive interview. Jules Vasquez found the often abrasive, always truculent Minister, reflective, nonchalant and maybe even a little stressed out but more than all that, he was plain spoken, saying that the attack from his cabinet colleagues hurt him.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“And for myself if you cut me I will bleed although people think that Ralph Fonseca is a work machine. I was hurt at first and then angry afterwards and then almost going into war mode. But I am a politician and I am more than a politician, I am a man that has invested 20 some years into politics in Belize. Most of those same guys are people that I have put there as national campaign manager and in the case of one had to fight for, because he as you know comes from the Senate, to make sure that in fact he was part of the team because he was part of my campaign team. So it hurts, at the end of the day it hurts; that was my lasting impression. So as a politician and as national campaign manager of the party I have got to stop thinking about Ralph Fonseca and I have to look at the whole picture and I have to bring out the analyst in me and find out what caused it and that is the process I am in right now.”

Jules Vasquez,
The conventional wisdom is taking this statement at face value at its most grim interpretation from your perspective you’ve got three weeks to live. Taking it from there you’ve got three weeks to live. Where do you go?

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“Well I don’t feel like I’m dying. While I’ve been going through this analysis process like I explained to you I have to be working. Let me say that if you expected me to say anything bad about any of these kids that went into the Prime Minister’s office you are not going to get that. I am team player. They are on my team and I was passing the ball back and forth to them right up to day before yesterday and taking it for granted and not even dreaming they were thinking that kind of way. I just had a historical opportunity, as you know, to be the first Minister of Finance, that’s not a Prime Minister, to read a budget. It was a very daring budget I think which increased taxes and did things that’s not politically right, if you like, in many cases. I changed the land tax system and made a lot of enemies because I did that; I had to deal with some of that this morning too by the way in order to get it settle down but also in order to work. I heard each one of them stand up and support my budget after very long debates of course and disputes in Cabinet and having to change many things in order to have consensus from Cabinet. In Cabinet as you know we don’t vote we have consensus. So I had thought that I had reached the plateau of my relationship with my colleagues. At the same time when you are in my shoes, National Campaign Manager, you know that during the campaign I have to kick ass and when you are Minister of Finance you have to say no sometimes, you can’t say yes all the time. So you have some enemies and of course we are going through a rough time. As I told you, I think just recently, we have too many balls in the air.”

“We had the situation with Social Security where those Glen Godfrey companies, the mortgages should never have been sent to the market in a security under the name of Social Security but rather under the name of DFC. But that’s during the BIMCO days and BIMCO was also under me so I take full responsibility like I take full responsibility now for anything at Social Security because Social Security still falls under me.”

“You don’t hear anything more today about any $3.34 million that somebody thief because in fact it was sold for $7 million. And look how close that is to the situation that occurred yesterday talking about Social Security, its ironic because Social Security made a big profit on it, according to you not big enough but it made a profit. The fact is that they made almost 50% on that money.”

“Social Security has got to invest in projects but the risks have got to be calculated and as I mentioned to you as far as I am concerned there were two mistakes made there. One the Glen Godfrey group of companies...and it was not Intelco because Intelco didn’t even exist at that time and by the way those securities were listed in the 2002 Social Security Report that was tabled in the House so nobody was hiding them, we had disclosed them from then. But in any case the two mistakes that were made as far as I am concerned is that it should not have been under Social Security it should have been under DFC that is one. The second one is that one of the mortgages, as far I am concerned after quick review, doesn’t have enough assets behind it as it stands on its own. But when you put it together now with the agreement that we have with the Godfrey group once they sell of Intelco, because they did use some of the money that they got from that securitization to invest in Intelco, it would more than make up for it and we think that will be done by next week.”

Jules Vasquez,
The Prime Minister in his statement which although I don’t believe, well he read it so he is responsible, but I can’t imagine that he would have crafted such a document implying that there are irregularities in terms of with the Central Bank. He said ‘we will afford the Central Bank full autonomy within government.’ I always thought the Central Bank had...

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“You Jules are implying that there are irregularities by saying something like that...”

Jules Vasquez,
No it is the Prime Minister...

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“He is reiterating the fact that the Central Bank will be autonomous and there is nothing wrong with that...reminding the people that the Central Bank will be autonomous.”

Jules Vasquez,
But if something is implicit you don’t need to restate it.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“Because somebody in the conversation must have said that they don’t think the Central Bank is autonomous enough so there was a need for him to reiterate the fact that the Central Bank is autonomous.”

Jules Vasquez,
But then he also says that ultimate management of financial public sector which right now rests with you, including SSB the DFC and all statutory bodies, will be the responsibility of the Cabinet. That means it will no longer be your responsibility.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“All of those things that you are talking about do not ultimately rest with me in their totality. Certainly not all the statutory bodies; BTB doesn’t fall under me, BMA doesn’t fall under me, there are many other statutory bodies out there still that do not fall under me.”

Jules Vasquez,
SSB and DFC do though.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“Social Security and DFC do and those were the ones that were attacked and that’s why those were particularly mentioned. But what he is saying there is that the collective responsibility for Cabinet as it relates to these bodies will be defined in a more sharper way; that’s what he is saying. But obviously some of these must have said to him that they don’t believe enough has been disclosed to Cabinet so now he is giving them the level of comfort that a mechanism will be in place to make sure that they are enclosed.”

Jules Vasquez,
Have they been disclosed? Have all the decisions you have made to use public funds, invest them as you may see fit or as you may see prudent or as a board that you have assigned has seen prudent...has the Cabinet been all knowing about those affairs?

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“Well first of all I don’t make decisions about investments. There is an investment committee that does that.”

Jules Vasquez,
Which you control.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“There is an investment committee that does that.”

Jules Vasquez,
Which government appoints.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“Which government appoints and that is appointed by Cabinet by the way.”

“But no, I do not go to Cabinet every week and say the investment committee met and approved this and this and this. But I would...first of all securitization was cleared by Cabinet and not only cleared by Cabinet it was in many speeches by the Prime Minister, it was in the National Assembly, and it was in the Social Security Reports. As I mentioned these mortgages that were securitized for the Godfrey group it wasn’t done yesterday, it was done in our last term between 1998 and 2003, it wasn’t done in this term and I think all of them are in that 2002 report. It was produced by Social Security so they are all aware, everybody was, just that it didn’t say Intelco because it’s one of Godfrey’s other companies.”

“I am having some problems now because of existing conditions. I am going to solve them given the time.”

Jules Vasquez,
Obviously 7 of them in your Cabinet, more than half, do not have that confidence that you have the ability to catch all these balls in the air. They will believe the balls will inevitably crash on the ground.”

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“Apparently that’s what they were saying yesterday yeah.”

Jules Vasquez,
So why should the public that you have the competence to do it if those who have been on the trenches with you feel that you failed.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“I am not asking the public to believe that it’s going to happen. I am saying that the future will tell.”

Jules Vasquez,
The future may be very short.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“Let’s see.”

Jules Vasquez,
Looking at this while I see that you the deflect the criticism that I am drawing from it but it says there will be full disclosure to Cabinet and to the public of all public sector loan guarantees and all financial arrangements and obligations. That means or I take that to mean that these have not been disclosed which can therefore be interpreted to mean you have been hiding...

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“What has not been disclosed?”

Jules Vasquez,
That there has not been full disclosure of public sector loans...

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“If it is the ones that are under the microscope right now, if you like, the Godfrey...

Jules Vasquez,
But those have been disclosed.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“We’ve been over those many many times.”

Jules Vasquez,
But this is the Prime Minister speaking and these are not my words.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“Please, people are playing politics with this thing.”

Jules Vasquez,
But its your...

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“People are playing politics with this thing just to get my head. They are always trying to get my head Jules. I am have been doing this thing for 20 years and like I said this isn’t the first time I am going through this and we are not playing jacks or skipping rope this is politics. You have competition from within and without and you can’t cry, you have to deal with it and I am dealing with it if you give me a chance okay. You have a perception that the Opposition has very successfully built out there to cause some hysteria as it relates to these Godfrey loans. And now we have people saying that they were not disclosed, these Godfrey loans, yet we are saying they are the Social Security reports and they have been there. I have heard kids calling in on the talk shows in the morning saying that they have been there from 2002 so why are you making noise about this thing. People didn’t look there and didn’t want to relate them to Intelco.”

“Knowing like I said that we have so many balls in the air; you have Intelco having gone through the nightmare that it has gone through, and I think that it was a genuine effort by the Godfrey group to really create competition; now that we have the problem with Novelo as it relates to DFC; now that we have problems with the bond issue we have a lot of balls up in the air. Most of those balls, if you like, are covering around my desk so I guess I am perceived by all as being the most vulnerable that I have ever been and I am not shocked that some people outside who don’t understand the inner workings of government but in fact hate Ralph Fonseca or hate PUP for one reason or the other would take advantage of that. I am confused and hurt that some of my own colleagues may have done that yesterday but I have nothing to say badly about them I am still in analysis mode like I said. I still believe that when you are in a team and you’re passing the ball right up to the last game and all of a sudden they throw the ball and the next one doesn’t catch it there is something endemic, something that is in there that you got find out what the problem is and get to the root of it. And once you get to the root of it then you continue to play ball.”

Jules Vasquez,
In his statement the Prime Minister said the success of this plan is dependent on certain fundamental changes to the approach and management of the public sector financing these changes will require restructuring at the highest level of government. What you hear that what do you understand from that being that you are the one who is charge of the current approach and management of those public sector finances and you are at the highest level of government as regards public sector finances?

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“Well I am not the only one.”

Jules Vasquez,
You and Hugh McSweaney.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“They mentioned other boards also not under me.”

Jules Vasquez,
But not under you. They mentioned the SSB and the DFC.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“And other statutory bodies and again I don’t run the BTB, I don’t run the...”

Jules Vasquez,
But the BTB isn’t the problem.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“Its not?”

Jules Vasquez,
But I am saying BTB isn’t at issue here its not mentioned there. It is saying there needs to be fundamental changes in the way your job is done and that these changes will require changes at the highest level of government. The highest level of public finance management is your seat.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“What are you trying to convince yourself, that the Prime Minister was saying there that he is going to get rid of me?”

Jules Vasquez,
Yes I am saying that...

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“You have convinced yourself then I can’t dissuade you.”

Jules Vasquez,
I want to know how you interpret it.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“I interpret it that that Prime Minister is making a broad phrase saying that changes have got to be made...in general.”

Jules Vasquez,
Are you prepared to make changes in your...?

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“I make changes everyday. Everyday I make changes.”

Jules Vasquez,
These people went in that office across hall and said Ralph Fonseca has to go.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“That is what I understand yes.”

Jules Vasquez,
6 of your own people went in there and they are maintaining that. Will you call them and say problem why didn’t you come to me and aren’t we on the same team? Will you do this?

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“My approach and how it will be done is something that I am still considering.”

Jules Vasquez,
Will you be in this office next month, September 1st?

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“That will depend on the Prime Minister. All of us, you know Jules, when we were sworn in, in Cabinet, had to sign a resignation letter at the same time. The Prime Minister doesn’t even have to ask me for my resignation letter he has it already...for all of us.”

Jules Vasquez,
There is a difference between an attack which is the slings and arrow you have to endure on the nightly news as opposed to a near mutiny when the Prime Minister faces half his Cabinet threatening to resign if you don’t go and that is not an attack, that is a full frontal head on assault. And eventhough I can say you certainly haven’t been in Belize Rural Central going house to house and saying well I need to get these voters-there are on other people’s list. I know that you give away 1,000 votes or share it up with those representatives in the city. But certainly the fighter in you which was one of your strongest instincts in politics as the campaign manager wants to fight out of this, must.”

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“It depends on what my analysis provides me with because what I am trying to say to you is that it is not my self-preservation that has driven me. Many many times I have stepped back. I am not deputy Prime Minister and I have never forced any situation on me.”

Jules Vasquez,
But you are the most powerful man in the government.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“That’s because you guys keep saying that but I am the hardest working one. Maybe I don’t know but certainly I am the most controversial one and I wave a red flag in front of a lot of people and I am understand that. What I am trying to say to you is that the result of my analysis will not be what is right for Ralph Fonseca, it will be what is right for the party.”

“Maybe the time has come for me to go back into the private sector, I don’t know. But I am not going to leave without getting to the bottom of this. And if when I get to the bottom of this there is really nothing and there was just some fear because of a panic that was fabricated out there, because of these balls in the air that I call them, then yes I will not go easy.”

Jules Vasquez,
You say fear but certainly the 7 people who are involved should not be the type to be swayed by fear. Is this raw opportunism? That you are being victimized because you are finally vulnerable or you are the most vulnerable you have been...

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“I am the most vulnerable that I have been yes.”

Jules Vasquez,
And that others see an opportunity for whatever reason to easily displace you and at the same time use you as a scapegoat and a sacrificial lamb.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“That is the some of the things that people have been saying to me, that have been calling me and emailing me literally by the thousands since yesterday, using those types of words. But those aren’t my words, I am simply hoping that something went drastically wrong with communication and there is some factor there that needs to be unleveled and if it can be unleveled I will un-level it.”

Jules Vasquez,
Will you offer yourself to the Prime Minister because I know you all have a long professional relationship and you have been intimately involved in his ascension as leader of the party. You were his campaign manager and you have been involved with his historic two terms post-independence. Will you say to him Mr. Prime Minister, Said as your friend, we are going to lose these 7 guys, the mat is not in your favor let me walk away. Activate that letter of resignation.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“If I need to I will. I’ve told him that already; I’ve told him please you have my letter of resignation you don’t have to ask me for it. I’ve reminded him of that already since this thing occurred.”

Jules Vasquez,
And if so chooses will you leave bitter about leaving that you were bamboozled or taken down because you paid the cost for being the boss?

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“Bitter is not an emotion that I hold or even a word that I use. I that I am a complex person, I am more complexed than that. I definitely won’t be bitter but I won’t disappear.”

Jules Vasquez,
Is it a tense relationship now with the Prime Minister across the hall, and I know you speak many times a day, because from one interpretation which I am lending it he was led to make a statement which was condemnatory of your performance and these words are certainly not his choosing and not his style.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“I am pretty sure of that.”

Jules Vasquez,
That there are not his choosing and not his style.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“They are not his style, I didn’t say not his choosing.”

Jules Vasquez,
But it certainly not his style to do something like this so has there been any tension between you and him feeling that he felt swayed under the demands of these 7?

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“I haven’t even talked to him about it. Would you believe that?”

Jules Vasquez,
You have not discussed this with the Prime Minister?

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“This statement I haven’t discussed with him. We don’t have to discuss that. We’ve worked together for too long.”

Jules Vasquez,
So even as he holds the fate of you in his hands if one is to read this from an outside perspective...

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“He always has the fate of all of us in his hands.”

Jules Vasquez,
Well he holds your future. He is contemplating whether to fire you or not. You have not gone in there and said please don’t fire me?

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“No no. Please we don’t even discuss that. Like I said on the contrary the only comment that I made to the Prime Minister after this is don’t forget you have my resignation letter already like you have all our letters.”

Jules Vasquez,
Is the PUP machine able to reconsolidate itself, to put itself in election shape after an event like this regardless of how it plays out?

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“This isn’t the first time we have gone through this kind of thing.”

Jules Vasquez,
But its the first time that 7 people have threatened resignation at one time and are still holding the Prime Minister of Belize under that threat and are shaping his words, not writing them, but certainly this is not the PM style. That is the first time this has happened.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“Well you can’t blame me for that. What does that have to do with me?”

Jules Vasquez,
But it’s about you. I am saying that the perception is that you are a behemoth in the government that takes 7 strong men to bring you down.

Hon. Ralph Fonseca,
“Well I am not brought down yet am I?”

And while Fonseca did not attack any of his accusers by name, he did cast some light backhanded blows at Trade Minister Eamon Courtenay whose father was embroiled in a Social Security scandal and Tourism Minister Hon. Mark Espat-who controls the BTB and BMA two statutory boards which Finance Minister Fonseca averred to–and those two are also considered the most formidable of the group of 7. What will they do next? Well, they have vowed to tender their resignation by month's end and, we're informed, that ultimatum stands.